I was ready.

For.

That.

So.

I'll give it a try so I'm recovering from
some my allergy infested long thing so

when I start coughing Jennifer
promises to take over so.

Thank you.

It's a real honor and exciting to
be part of this symposium I come

from the computer science world with
a little mix of engineering psychology but

from that computer science world I never
get to be on a panel with all women.

I'm just I'm already right texting my
daughter this is what you should do

she's thirteen so
I expect her in a few years and

what I wanted to start
with this tension around.

Measurement and consequences and for the
past decade I've worked in the field of

health informatics which I think is
a minefield of unintended consequences.

Around measurement and consequences so
just to give you a few examples and

I tend to work in the scale of of
the personal device up to the home so

I'm going to going to
start with the mobile and

work work my way up because I can't
resist the Smart home commentary but

we have worked in mobile technologies for

diabetes management and so
you want to control blood sugar right and

this I'm sure Statistically speaking there
are people who are diabetic in this room

so we've developed mobile technology said
help people gain a better understanding of

their blood sugar and
its relationship to their practices and

the intent of course is to improve
their health their health outcomes.

And overall enhance their life but what we
did and this is common in my field is we

focused on the measurable part of that so
we focused them slowly

we got them to you know the technology
focus them on those numbers right and so

what did they do they became really good
at controlling those numbers and keeping

them into a reasonable value did they do
that through improved diet and health and

activity no they did that by abusing
their insulin dosage is so that their

numbers were always where they should be
and so they just essentially push down.

Stream problem in terms of
not actually going after

are the intended consequences of this
environment that we're trying to create so

my environment E.G. you see the technology
and human behavior part of it but

by focusing on what was measurable we're
essentially creating an unintended

consequence of something that
might actually be a worse problem.

And we do this we do this frequently so

there are good zillion lose
weight apps that are out there.

Probably all of them are crap.

But what they do is they focus people
on the wrong behaviors right and

so they will gleefully let you set
unattainable goals all right I'm

going to lose twenty pounds in
a month before my friend's wedding.

You set that and then when you don't
achieve that then you give up on the goals

of what you're trying
to trying to achieve so

I just feel like in my world we had this
this this desire through the lens of

technology to focus on something
that is quantitative to try to

steer human behavior in ways that.

Are either harmful ridiculous so
the ridiculous is I can't resist the smart

houses so I love the video clips.

The video clip that maybe some folks have
seen in the audience is the magic smart

doors on Star Trek right so
Captain Kirk is you know walking

dramatically and is going up to the doors
and they make that beautiful noise

right as they open and close all right so
many people think that was a really

old door that was automated
OK I said it that way so

no one's going to even think that it's of
course two stage hands who have ropes.

These things and
there's these great outtakes

that you can see of
Captain Kirk The Captain Kirk walking and

he was supposed to turn in
given speech and he doesn't but

the guys don't open the thing fast
enough walk straight in it are these.

Times where he turns and dramatically
gives a speech and if it was if it

was a technology system it would be like
the grocery store doors they'd be like.

But but they're waiting for that
dramatic time to do the right thing so

we have these expectations of how these
systems work but it never plays out

in those ways so in my world where
this concept to seem full design and

I don't know if that is also
a term of use in architecture but

what we do is we were referring to
the seams that technology creates and

how people start to think of the scenes
in the technology just as much as

the physical form and says within the
environment so some great examples of this

can be a wife I see people
have actually designed games.

Where you essentially can hide
in the wife eye shadows and

you're simply it's like a scavenger hunt
or a game of tag and people learn where

the seams are in smart homes there's again
beautiful video clips of one of the first

Markham's who's built in Colorado where
he had those great sensors right you know

in the classic you walk in and it turns
all the lights on and does everything for

you and so there's this guy who
it's his house he's designed it and

he's literally sneaking in the night
along the edge of the walls

around the edge trying to sneak into his
house because he doesn't want the lights

to turn on right so he has figured
out the seams of the sensors and

he knows that if he steps right in
the room or the lights come on a little

disturbed his wife and that doesn't want
to happen so he's now he's now created his

own house where he has to skulk around to
try to not get it all to make the way it

was designed to automate this absolutely
crazy these tensions that we put up so

I want to start in with a positive story
and then I'll turn this over to Jennifer

but I think the situations
where it has worked

has been a concept of under design and
adaption.

And how do we actually.

Design technologies with an overarching
soft goal so in this particular

scenario it's going to be an overarching
soft goal on human connection and then we

get these positive intended consequences
because we allow people to adapt and

shape the technology towards towards their
overall goals so we had another smart

house project but in this case it was
a project on caregiver awareness so

the scenario is an elderly
mother living by herself.

And maybe a spouse is has passed away and
their adult child is worried about her

living by herself you know hours or
time zones apart from each other and

how could you provide peace of mind
awareness between these two groups so

we spent a lot of time under just
Xining mean a system that would

provide just a modicum of information
between these two stakeholders so

in this case it was the older woman
living by herself and her adult son and

we did not use cameras despite all
the technology people raising their hands

really insane but you could have cameras
and you could have a picture of her and

if she's having a bad day the picture
could change could turn gray and scary and

when you do that to a family we didn't
use cameras we use very simple motion

sensors and we use we put motion
sensors where it was OK with her and

you just got a very modest sense of
her movement throughout the house and.

The adult son had a visualization
of her motion throughout the house

abstracted it was actually pictures of
butterflies that's a long story but

it was an abstract notion of her motion
and and she didn't have anything which

is important to the story and so we have
a lot of interesting stories where the son

got really clever in how he
could adapt what he wanted

or needed to know in the context
of their relationship so he was.

Worried about her coming home late
he could just watch the system and

then when it when it flickered on to show
that there was some activity you knew she

was there safe he'd wait ten minutes later
get settled and then give her a call to

see how our day went because he hated like
constantly calling her or constantly.

Or you know he you know hitting her
right when she's coming in the door and

having to rush into the phone there was
another story where the sensors were going

haywire it looked like she was just going
you know they were just going way too high

in the house so he was a smart
southern sun I will say this and

he called her up and he didn't say.

Hey you know that thing that I had that
watches you will it tells me you're up to

something to what's going on which way
she would have unplugged the system but

he just called her and said How are you
doing and she said I'm having a great day

I'm finally getting around to painting
this hallway that I mean wanted to do and

so she's got I've got the primer up and
I'll be able to finish the painting

tomorrow will she been pegging
between two sensors all day long and

then made the didn't you know
the numbers go by so long story short we

interviewed her towards the end of
the study and I feel really worried

about how that interview is going to go
because she was eighty seven years old and

the longer the study went on It was like
the healthier she got right this was

a very independent woman didn't
really need our help in my opinion.

And maybe really.

Resented having this kind of technology
in her home and so we interviewed her and

it's like OK you know here was this day
and it showed there was a lot of activity

and you were in and out of the house
it's like yeah I was guardian and

you know was an interview
was proceeding along and.

You know we said you know kind of at the
end you know how would you describe this

system to maybe a friend of yours because
that's a kind of classic interviewing

question in my field right just how would
you describe it to someone else and

she said you know I really
really enjoyed the system.

She said it made me feel less lonely.

And we sat there and that makes us

great because she had nothing in
the house she didn't have a picture or

she didn't have there was no
manifestation of the system.

In her home maybe you know made her her
son feel more connected because he had

a thing to point to.

And was so we're like OK they made you
feel less lonely hound she said well

you know those days ago where I don't even
speak to another human being you know I

mean home doing my thing and
I just knew it was there that I had

a connection to rob her son
that I didn't have before and

because of that connection I didn't
feel as alone I felt less lonely.

And if we had started that project with
we're going to measure of loneliness and

we're going to design a system to
make this woman feel less lonely

I can list off the twenty stupid
things we would have tried to do.

But we started a project with a modest
desire of creating a very small

connection between these two family
members and then watched it play out

as they adapted in shape to do around
their social relationships and

how they interpreted those relationships
in the context of something much larger so

it is nice to see and I you know I
wouldn't even have a pretty picture

I was trying to show this to you this is
I don't work in the built environment but

I work in how the built environment is
reflected in these relationships that when

we under design and
we kind of these larger goals of white

human beings want to achieve with each
other then we can actually do some things

that are if not profound
that was really interesting.

So I will stop there I have other fun
stories but I'm not coughing up something.

To.
Thank you this is this been really really

lovely and I really appreciate that
you're you're starting the conversation

on the discussion and off on this this
piece about scale I think that's a very

important component of this and
I reminds me of I was

at a Buell center symposium at Columbia
a longer ago than I care remember and

the one of the things that was
there was a set of presentations

much like today and many of them were
on high architecture sort of out

there some knees we got lilies
that will occur in there and

then there was one of presentation that
was on a southern school houses and

segregated sucks up the school and

I'm just stood there just completely stood
out as being a completely different it

wasn't about technology it was about
sort of the program in addition to

a lot of others first says Who economic
socio cultural issues around it and

I when right Was that discussed and
on this on this panel and

she said we have to get good
at thinking about it and

I'm I hope I remember this properly and
I don't miss.

This attribute this to her but
really that we need to get

better at understanding
the different sides of inquiry and

that we continue to have to
have a rigorous methods and

approaches to how we research these things
but that we need to get better at thinking

about there being a much more diversity
in terms of the sides of inquiry and

I think this question of multi
scalar ness ties in with and

also this question of measurement because
clearly the metrics are different for

measuring in the different types of
inquiry and when we get when we think

about whether it's the scale of the body
or the individual in the health context or

the scale of the building or the scale
the neighborhood the scale of the city

we're going to be looking
at very different you know.

It's of analysis in order to
understand and different metrics for

that reason and if we're not clear about
that what ends up happening is we end up

sort of misunderstanding as that day and
you said it very nicely at the beginning

of it really with the them
results are from the beginning so

one of the things I just give because I
work on technology diffusion I was hearing

things about technology fusion and
all three of the talks and invests

comments as well and one of the things I
think is always highlights is this issue

of weekly sort of and particularly when
we're talking a technology we think that

if we measure things correctly and
somehow convey in their results

sufficiently that then we'll actually
be able to and that those results show

demonstrably that the thing we're looking
at is better the right that then adoption

will just is assured that the the
predecessor search technology will be

will be superseded by the betterness
of what we are proposing and

that is if you do it can be green or
sometimes it is sometimes greener

technologies sometimes it's actually
just simply lighter I mean there's

all sorts of different
words we can use for

how this of the it can be a process it can
be a material can be a product but we get

very confused when this is insufficient
for making the change right and

you can hear this often when people say
and I'll say this from the family members

perspective we often now get advice from
media and communications people who say to

us don't just publish your results in the
in the papers tweet out your results or

they'll say to the scientists I
feel terrible for my colleagues for

some detail saying scientists don't speak
well to reporters go take some learning

how to talk to reporters and that somehow
if we could just get this word out that

this would in fact happen differently and
of course that's just not the case

that path dependencies are not
just about us not explaining our.

Technologies are are are better in
the past the tendencies are entrenched

patterns of behavior it's
not the issue that we have.

Just better technologies and if they're
better technology is a substitute for

the incumbent technology it's that they
have to be substantially better not

simpler because they have to overcome the
path and ensues that we're looking at so

what is substantially better
actually meet Well we first ask and

I bring this up particularly because I'm
looking at a lot of amazing technology

that was presented right now and I spend a
lot of time with Beth who has nothing but

amazing technologies to
diffuse out into the world and

I love the comment about test that was
a really helpful discussion too because we

think a lot about the test beds
these days as ways of moving

forward more technology to fusion and
I think one of

the things we need to think about really
is this question of institutions and

intermediaries that function to push
forward technology diffusion and

that is where the policy professor and
these are stand stands up and says you

know we need to think about this not as a
government issue per se but this is about

all sorts of institutions all sorts of
firms all sorts of individuals all sorts

of institutions actually learning how
to absorb change by understanding

the opportunity adopting and the technical
difference so that means actually.

Getting better at understanding
the technical difference and

then accepting the risks
of uncertainty and

that has that's really this issue of
understanding the potential for a new and

different transaction costs and
I'm struck by that the Brazil case

as an example of that the and the
incredible ability to embrace that risk in

that uncertainty when you don't know what
the transaction costs are going to be but

you take it on anyway because
the opportunity is just too good and

then there's the comment about value
engineering which are my favorite

phrases in the world if you're
hearing the I now know what it means.

That is indeed the idea too that
we're not just talking about

packages of technologies that
are displacing other technologies one for

one we're talking about that
the the problem of once you have a package

of better technologies to implement if you
have to value engineer it it's also about

how the stripping back of the core versus
peripheral functions are how do they

perform how does a performance seventy
five percent of what you intended which

is more likely rightly under percent of
what you intended is it going to perform

as well as the seventy five percent of
the end of the income in technology so

these are things that then move us to the
question of test beds and I really go back

and forth on test beds and we can we
can talk about that a little bit.

But one of the interesting things about
the test kits idea is this idea that

if we can prototype these at full
scale these technologies at full scale

that these will be convincing that people
will then have the lived experiences

of these new technologies in real time
real space or real place right so

instead of the just the metrics just the
measuring and saying See this is twenty

five percent better you actually have
people living here twenty five percent

better experience right and this is this
idea that increment we see this a lot now

and in urban infrastructure projects such
shrinking down the scale of the original

structure projects to the point where you
can actually implement a smaller scale and

then have to develop a constituency
because you have the public experiencing

it and the example that I that I tend to
use in this is that chunk of time in Seoul

is a very good example of a scaled down
linear park urban intervention that could

have been a lot bigger and is actually
intended to be a lot bigger but the effort

there is to build a constituency
around eventual implementation of

something like that in a in
a much broader scale but

the constituency that gets built and
then actually advocates for it under.

Stands it and pushes that technology
diffusion forward the challenge though and

I think we all sort of touched on it too
is that when you do test beds when you do

incremental implementation you also open
the door for an even implementation and

that leads to potentially questions
about distribution like what in

an even development so you can't
just test set it in one place and

one time you have to actually
have somewhere in the back and

the commitment to the broader to broader
access and expanding brought opportunities

with the promise.

Of.

A little.

Bit You know you.

Saw it was lovely to see
that it was really good.

So you can seek a scale of you know we.

Always do is go with it for.

A while see the city power to see.

You.

We started it was right to do it this
was she started first of all go into.

Building close but
really for the city to see.

Where it goes you recently
prove that the solution is to.

Fight for based on the sale of.

Recalibrating which we.

Live Tess.

So.

There is.

Pieces to slow this was her.

Phone will is wrong but.

Like I said when I was last.

On I was watching.

You know that was.

Our.

Writer on.

Stage.

On some

rock.

But some.

Wonder so there.

Was.

Really.

Not only.

What.

Was Really.

Real.

Life stuff.

But anyway it was a good life.

Down here.

Works.

For.

Right.

So we started out trying.

To work why.

Why.

Why.

Why wait.

Whites are losing right now it.

Was on its.

Best.

Side it's.

Right it's.

What.

You what it's.

Like.

Was said.

Seders there's no question that.

I'm absolutely challenging
current technology.

With.

Our.

Current interest in modern
technologies such as.

Sage such was I don't think so
much by technology but.

I think it.

Was.

Dan's a model and my career.

I think that was part of my
trajectory when I realized that I was

not right and so I wanted to analysis.

What is is why are they stockpiled.

I have the sports leagues teaches on and

on Smart two hundred forty different
variations where it's gone and

instead I changed the saying on to.

Something to the idea
is that if I absolutely

understand what you're trying to
do understand how things work and

you're unable to sort of was.

Causing relating how things were too.

So.

You can do it and
any combination of materials in your.

Name but
you have to know how things work and

one here is our hands are a nasty side.

And cost on discrete
model students hopped on

a dynamic dating system and
nothing can move and

nothing can change their behavior half of
the time it's actually easy once she's

constructing that relationship so
I do think that's part of us that we have

signed up is that you should
instrument the station.

I hope that is the advanced
technologies come and you're used.

To.
Make those things happen but

they can happen almost anywhere and
should match the same that's

hard on the borders first of all
making the behaviors happen and

then the technology companies like
they're not about Robert shift and

here they're about are you going to
streamline to make scenes to make it

more in expense in the end
make it more interesting.

And I think.

One of the issues that I want to
highlight which I think parallels what

you're saying.

And I'd love to hear more commentary
from this panel and this is

the internet of things this reminds me
is when she said smart materials and

materials it's in many ways the same idea.

And the economic costs are being
borne out differently but

I think are being fully under estimated
in the Internet of Things approach so.

How many people have a Nest thermostat.

How many people essentially
have you know some form of

cloud based appliance to do
something smart with in their home

in contrast to what would
have been the previous.

Kind of Radio Shack Tandy version of
the same smartness which would have been

a stand alone system it would have been
more complex at the it's the beginning and

maybe a bit more expensive but
it wouldn't come with what doesn't come

with that are all of the security and
privacy concerns much less

kind of the downstream main It concerns
the Internet of Things approach so

in today's market what you can do is
put out a an app that's going to have

bugs in it but that's OK because you can
you know download upgrades to it later and

the smarts can be in the cloud and you
can have the relatively simple appliance

within the home environment but
you're now creating opportunities

where even the cloud base light
bulbs are a security risk for

your home and your home network and
not to mention privacy and

monetizing your data in ways that
would not occur if you had focused on

kind of the upstream complexity and
cost of standalone systems but

almost most of those companies
don't even exist today right and

so you know there's a question of even
if we start looking at you know your

your pathways here right we've shut out
most of the Motorola Radio Shack team

the pathways in terms of those types
of systems at least in the consumer

space but we're opening up and
now leveraging these cloud

based pathways not paying attention
at all to the downstream costs

both real in terms of maintenance and
threats in terms of security and

privacy.

Yes.

Miss.

To.

Set its.

Sights.

Said.

It.

Was to dispense.

With.

The.
Good news.

On its.

Own right.

For its.

Slightly less water.

Supplies and said.

He was surprised by was.

And was.

So.

I think really there are tremendous sort
of hitlist there's a lot of functionality

and trying to do is to make
less things to more and and

I think it's a huge change I mean.

But on the flip side to that I
do think that for the week on.

The we're able to get something.

Right now we're sort of stuck in this
paradigm where there's always this

relationship between was reading reduces
was never was in the top down control this

was this is what ration should be out now
but I think as we get more and more on

biological Kerns and to the biotech
industry to the degree intentional or

decentralization will be far greater
now that causes all sorts of

other respects for
the city which you're on you know.

Probably beyond this
this discussion here but

I think basically that the issue
of the control of information and

access to information and the dispersion
of information on is is something good is.

You know in your mind control at this
point I mean it's it's really it's out

there some of which is kind of
an injury and how to respond to it but

I just wanted to go back closer
to that issue on the consequences

because I was very moved by the strange
feeling lately and I think that

this kind of thing has happened throughout
history obviously in a very large and

small are still you know just
a small example from ours is that

you know one of the fire type stuff
that we're working with my species was

was intended by you to colonize
the students or see the colleges and

all of these kinds of massive programs
that would have never been funded for

the purpose of buildings these are never
thought about what was the one

thing to do something so that I'm sorry
to do this to possibly but on but

the point being that on the intensity and
intense sort of spin off of

technology the only to me is that this
is another great example on we have so

many technologies that if your brain or
possibilities for

translation was on
the water rights I mean.

This is when I think I was just you know
you were there with you for like for

example the show the beginning
any very soon so

many of the wearables and in your cars and
on the other part of our credit rating

you know some nice letter from a letter
because of the you know great.

Britain that they're able to
execute on but there isn't a secure

this route really from the originals
to the intentions of the study and

so I think you know.

I don't know whether another stick with
what we're not actually getting or

if it's really trade surplus or if you
know the the amount of information and

the amount of connection that information
lies will facilitate that but it's just

I think it is worth thinking that in
general and to think that more information

returns information is entering the system
runs of this discovery in a way you know.

Thank you for now I'm wondering if
you would have been you know where

one of the discoveries a very very much a
function of the fact you were able to see.

Any close to nothing.

To see the social because.

Because of this because it was available
in the system and I think you know part of

this day I was moved by this mission
of of the lighting in the hall and

the like a circadian rhythm rhythms
reminding me of I think that's actually

how big is the sign right so you have no
sense of time when you're there and so

this overall sense of
the relationship between health and

policy in technology I mean together and

one of the year is I worked in recently
is around kind of for statics and

wearables But we've also have
focused on the wheelchair in robot

technology because it's in in the in
the appropriate world to fusion and

invention coming together these things
should be reinforcing each other but

if you look at the marketplace what
you see is that most real chairs

that older adults have available
to them are are quite for

decades for
compared to you know autonomy so

you will somehow they get the systems you
know I can we have how can we have hybrid

electric systems that can you know drive
around for city day it is a car scale but

we can accommodate some of the same
capabilities in wheelchairs and

it's all about the policy surrounding
the expectations of those technologies so

if you're under Medicare which would
be the bulk of the buying power.

Wheelchair technology is under the policy.

Held in your home so it just around
by the walls of your home and

if you can circumvent advocate
you holding a wheelchair so

that's essentially better bad kitchen and
a very modest distances.

Then that is sufficient for the policy
expectations of wheelchairs if you are in

the veterans systems the veterans
policy expectations is not.

Pure survival when you're home but
it's about engagement it's about keeping

up a job it's about getting out into the
community it's about social engagement so

the policy driving the technology
innovation around the systems

is you know not bedroom to kitchen but
it's going out for

a full day either through employment or
engagement completely different

systems available and
price points that make no sense except for

the market optimizing around
these policy decisions and so

if we if we're not we're not paying
attention to the policy component of what

we expect to come out of these
technology kills space environment.

Combinations and the market the socially.

Creates is what was coming on the air
within that space and so the report that I

was on is make recommendations to try to
try to change this so maybe we can know

if you shift the policy then the market
will change but if you just looked at

Autonomy vehicles and robots and
everything that's out there and then you

look at the commonplace wheelchair it
makes no sense unless you also look at it

the thing to you when you refer to fusion
power to see is going to be taken for so

much of this is out there whereas
with especially related to energy.

It really comes to this one talk to
the we have to run there and there

just to come back what you said Think back
to some great time of actually going and

doing policy of engagement as fast as
a technical expert in your field and

many many of us don't do that because
it's hard to see the direct line of why

that is so critical around that but
these barriers to two tend to get.

For new technologies but also new
firms often come from certification

come because of the policy
certification so

every time there is a new techno
technological innovation and

taking very seriously the comment that not
all technology is an improvement I think

and I underscore that yes but
those new technologies or materials or

processes many of them particularly
if they're going to have any sort of

public sector funding behind them have to
go into a certification process right so

we need to go up to nest and say this is
part of what we need to be talking about

this is and this is particularly
true with the built environment and

weigh in on those conversations rather
than allowing others people who don't

actually understand the context of
the deployment of the technology but

simply just understand the technology.

That's more most of the certification
comes to if you're not certified whether

it's in the health environment or whether
it's in the UK and if we think eighty and

you think about all the things that
that effect that the built environment

then you will not actually
have a part of the market.

Just.

As it were.

For low wages.

For a year and.

It was

going.

On.

We'll step back there.

Was.

Just.

Such.

Racially.

Charged.

Instance that price.

Was.

Hard for.

Some.

One.

Just to.

Follow.

Was.

Seriously hurt.

And his.

Life was.

On.

The road.

Was it.

Rocks his life.

Was.

Striking.

The.

Right.

Words.

To the our.

World.

And what.

Was right.

And so we.

Were.

Right you're a good friend.

We.

Seek.

Peace.

And sooner or.

Later.

This is.

What.

Life is.

What you know.

It's real it's.

What.

You.

See.

So that's just.

My last question.

To my life since I was fifteen and

that's what I found out this week and.

I serve the national interest.

On the first one was in a green light.

Shines on three hours cars.

That are going to judge street and
I was right ever since and

partially drugs everything I do and
look I.

Just want to cite.

Just one.

Moment that is strange
I want to just bite.

My tongue one time Dr Wright extension
does wonders changing the world

has changed places that Sangharsh.

Absolutely.

I'm thinking.

Of the spring that's
inspired me very unsparing.

You know I don't work alone so
I can work in sort of large groups and

a lot of what drives our process
is is research based and

sort of driven by areas
you bring in questions and

so part it's sort of stream in and out
of that so instead of something sort of

project driven the projects are kind
of leaving her late husband's leave you

as you just write your opportunities that
we have to maybe test a hypothesis or

test something and we're doing experiments
something that we're doing it gets Not so

on so
I wouldn't say it's like blank slate and

we always kind of joke you know one or
center that everything's imagine.

When there is a new project or a new
building where everything's a mental.

Measurement because it's always
sort of all of these sort of.

Part of the structures there will
be how to visually collectively

we're always sort of falling back into
some of these stages in these trucks so

I would never think that we're.

All right with a blank slate However.

I wish we could but that which we try and
meet her is the same

what we're really trying to do is really
question our assumptions and really trying

out in a sense put things in a sense the
competition with each other if you will so

when it comes to materials we always
try to say will resist I'm agnostic or

material like Gnostic whatever and
try to bring it down

once again to the same be essential
questions that we're asking and.

That that has a little bit to provide
resistance within our center and

with respect to what others
are doing in the world and

satirise out a lot of the research
where you know we're doing our students

are doing literature refusing to sort of
seeing what's happening out in the world

how are other people in a similar question
or how are they responding to some

Russians and then how do they situate
arguments relative to those those kids.

So for those those fields if
you're disciplines are for groups.

But then I think you raise such
a wonderful point which is that can we

can we try to create that
type of a rock sound where we

divest ourselves as much as possible.

From assumptions and and I think it does
go back to this issue of the unseen and.

One of the ways in which we do this and
I hate to be I'm going to sell some techno

feel like i Tunes today we're
trying I really have no not really

I kind of to believe we would know this is
the team with the technology etc But but

I do think that there is
that these are not so

amounts of data that are interchange
in our exposure to feedback loops and

need to know something place that others
in the places that are multiple models and

you know it's the same presumably the same
thing I think we have more access

to those kinds of resistances that
force us to questioners sometimes and

force us in a sense to.

You know maybe drive us a little
better and that's just I'm hopeful

although I do think there are also a lot
of self reinforcing mechanisms within

the technologies we use in the models we
use to cases members and good things to

do so because McCrae's maybe we could say
nothing is teams who didn't have this

heard of us don't wait around as much
as we ever have been but it's fun.

But it's like you know I think trying
to create that fresh start if you

will work with me groups or individuals
on the original sort of aspire to

it.

It's going to have to slowly to do what's
right for his stuff troll desires that

there was a fax to do like to say
because you did once again delayed it

is not always good right there's a reason
we don't stand outside and do our work

you know and so on and you could even
have too much to write a play or

do like you know in sight so
having said that but you know.

I think we're very close I mean I don't.

I don't think I want to close
in terms of Time Crash was.

Completely capable.

There's actually some wonderful work hard
on the job thirty years I was hired.

Media Lab at MIT and
that's actually quite some time.

Working with only two systems
that can remove her it's just

what's going on outside when I was on

the British Art Center has a variety
of problems another problem they have.

In order to.

Be.

A legacy in the mining miners they have
never changed the lighting system so

they still might not they bought a company
and went when I went out of business and

saw all the lighting technology
just in the nineteen seventies and

they're running out and so.

I'm just I'm actually and.

Again like NEARY We could easily go.

Home.

And out of there had to
fight with the idea.

One of the reasons I mentioned was
how to talk to the cinematography

past the sun.

Was.

Told by the size of the model.

And what they created.

We we don't use of anything like this and
other types of those things exist doctors

wires to things from us on the first
lot yes I mean you can understand

how these things map on the right behind
you can watch all of that was much simpler

if you realize that only one out of
the system because you only have one on.

That's out now seventy five percent of
the things you have to do with order to

make daylight but we don't do the job on
the stand and translate what is the right

to do the things that would make
the technology there and the rules.

But it's it's it's neurobiologists
working with issues like colleges

working with a marketable engineers
working with designers group people like

to work together for
thing that's part of the model and so.

We're very internal knowledge we're
just not fair in terms of all.

The other things just about
the spaces that we create

where we have to have multiple
users one of our views used to

this is just education is actually
is working with Mt Sinai Hospital.

It's down.

Because he's trying to design a condition.

Where if you think about
the operating theatre and

you think about a variant risk patient
in the spectrum of life they need to.

Verses be the person operating
right the person our brain wants

to Spectrum did the patient does
not the patient wants to be as much

across the state as possible so how do you
start to create like I mean in the future

first of all what as we said we're
not recreating the outside inside but

what it's not you know there's a reason
we do have to make using it was

we were creating the major league
control of what what would be

sloughed what we do select relative to
the stuff and for the British are sent.

It was more interesting Michel about
this issue of the blue line and

that sort of testy join attachment
to the light if it actually might

be more about the dangers of the tradition
of studios and I'll tell you

showing their works because of course
the blue light is the best place for

her to be from with that's been
the wisdom the received wisdom for

centuries and I was thinking about
that when you were presenting because

I thought that the doctors that treat
all these sort of cognitive tests on

executive function with you know the
surgeons and stuff spectrum that they're

like in the best in terms of the ordinary
citizens from harm Yeah exactly and

their ability to concentrate and then then
even their ability to run Yes that was

the problem on the issue but then there's
also their own what they can see here how

exactly they get to see the degree of
decision most of us don't mean their

perception of the Renaissance painters or
of a surgeon a neurosurgeon etc So

we we might not have that had a lecture
on that conference for a time like but

understanding you know the kinds
of like the really want we're just

at the beginning I think of that study.

As a

culture.

Eat.

Now.

I think it's a trick question
on a technology design.

You know everything from scenario
storyboarding to prototype being to kind

of conceptual mock ups because.

Oftentimes in these inner just when
they're Kleiber ations where I've got

health care I've got designers and
I've got engineers all coming together is

I have to work with the team to
create a new conceptual goal

that neither group could
articulate by themselves and.

To some extent.

The artifact necessary is what convinces
the team to move in that direction so

for some teams it might be just
sufficient to have a storyboard or

scenario for others it's that OK
this is what prototypical data could

look like you know can we
move in this direction.

Many of the things that we've done
in the Smart home environment

the conversations with the engineer.

The computational perception is
their world have all down to what we

can sense anything but
we have no idea what matters right and

we can sense things all day long and

if you've got enough data you could
always find something but that in no way

is steering the ship towards a goal that's
actually going to solve a problem or

are meeting me so you know we spend
a lot of time in those intermediary

artifacts to to again try them to
move that conversation but it's

because we're screwed with groups that
are starting from such different vantage

points that if you don't create that
common ground and figure out a roadmap

to get you there they will continue
working towards their traditional goal.

Holes and you will never have
a system that comes together.

The little buildings
were the same way but.

I think this question.

Match on.

Fire you might.

Want to hang on to.

Really stand.

Your Ground.

With Science.

Push.

Back on measuring and.

Mamma and if you could name that mama
there is now on the stage from which.

To think sometimes in architecture we do.

Give us an answer to.

What we simulate and Hamas.

And it is understanding.

Hypothesis but it's not the.

Hypothesis actually very
often people are many things.

Right.

There this is.

Really just.

A coal fire You Tube.

Was the first right through very.

Little discussion for fire leaders where

we were.

Still.

There.

It was.

A sheet.

The.

British.

Are.

Very.

Thankful.